Respect and education

Where does respect for another's beliefs end, and correction begin? For example, is it disrespectful to some one's "beliefs" to correct shotty scholarship? Where does one begin and the other end?

If I believe the ancient Celts themselves used Robert Graves Lunar tree calender, and some one corrects me and says they didn't were they disrespectful to my beliefs?

Tags: debate, opinions, respect

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Permalink Reply by Fool Coyote on June 23, 2008 at 1:40pm: QUOTE: Good afternoon Fool Coyote, I think you cannot debate a person’s belief, because that is spiritual, however; a person can debate about historical fact. For example, if a person says “ I spiritual believe that Celtics did use Robert Graves Lunar Tree Calendar” than I cannot argue that is your belief. It’s apart of you, however, if you said, “It’s a proven fact that Celtics used Robert Graves Lunar Tree Calendar” than I would say “what information do you have to support the fact”. There would be a debate which would be respectful with a disagree or agree. So there are two ways one can look at this discussion. When it comes to belief one has to respect that person’s belief, yet; when comes to correction or stating a fact than one can debate about the fact.

While I agree with the idea of what you've written, I must disagree with how it's said. Now I can believe spiritually or otherwise that the Celtic people used the Lunar tree calender, it won't make it so. On the other hand, I can believe it is a valid piece of modern knowledge based on old Celtic beliefs. An example of Mr. Graves personal journeys perhaps. I do however find this to be a problem in the Celtic (and Pagan as a whole), the apparent inability to seperate what is modern and ancient knowledge and tradition.

However, I have seen some fight like animals to support the whole Lunar tree calender as ancient, the "Celtic connection", and other misinformation, and when proven false, the debate often dissolves into the "you're attacking my beliefs" argument.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Lady Anastasia on June 23, 2008 at 3:15pm: If I believe the ancient Celts themselves used Robert Graves Lunar tree calender, and some one corrects me and says they didn't were they disrespectful to my beliefs?

I think that you're free to believe whatever you want to.

However, I do believe that there is a difference between personal beliefs/ or 'Unproven Personal Gnosis' , and Factual Information.

When someone asks a question, or when I have a question, I'd much rather get Factual information, than someone's UPG.

And, I think that any time someone is trying to portray their 'UPG' as fact, that they should be corrected.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Lady Anastasia on June 23, 2008 at 3:17pm: However, I have seen some fight like animals to support the whole Lunar tree calender as ancient, the "Celtic connection", and other misinformation, and when proven false, the debate often dissolves into the "you're attacking my beliefs" argument.

Exactly, that's a problem that seems to be rampant in many pagan communities. That's a big issue between Recon's and the Reform Movements.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Lady Anastasia on June 23, 2008 at 3:35pm: I have tired to debate with a buddy about conflicts of Christian Wicca. This is her belief, and no matter what I said “I am wrong”. Like you mention above “You’re attacking my belief”. I couldn’t debate with her on facts. I had to finally let it go.

What about when walking away isn't really an option? Take for example a 'beginner' or 'teen' asks a question in a group. He/She is answered with 3 responses to this question with people's UPG and 2 responses where people have given factual information, including cites and examples.

This turns into a back and forth battle, in which the number of people spouting UPG's increase to the point when the original post is unintelligible, and, those who are giving source information are now considered to be either the 'anti-christ' or even more terrible, the 'anti-wiccan'.... lol

Teens and begginers often times will be swayed by popular opinion over factual information and take the easy route... If we don't try to argue the point, are we not actually letting the fluff and misinformation win our and multiply?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jennifer on June 23, 2008 at 5:07pm: "Teens and beginners often times will be swayed by popular opinion over factual information and take the easy route... If we don't try to argue the point, are we not actually letting the fluff and misinformation win our and multiply?"

Good Point, Kris, Teens and Beginners are very susceptible to to the Ignorance and Misinformation of the "Fluff Bunny", How do I know this you ask, because not long ago I was one of the beginners(I still am learning each and everyday), and I tend to lean with Catherine's response to that. For those to proclaim they are "RIGHT" and other's are wrong, when you have proved your point through several links to various accredited sites, and there's were just bogus theories based upon a persons opinion, then really there is no argument. Let the fluffs get fluffier, while we take our knowledge and insight elsewhere, a place where others come to learn and listen and partake in factual conversation. I learned very quickly who to trust as far as being "factual" and "true" to the paths and who not to. It's easily seen by the average person, and those not seeing it, is because they don't want to, or their yearning for knowledge was never really there. Now 2 things can happen from this, you can do as Catherine suggested and email them facts and links in good faith that they make the right choice, and 9 chances outta 10 when I emailed folks like that they always responded back, so they in fact were hearing me, what they choose to do after that point is on them. Or you can do nothing at all and remain silent, and "know" in your heart that in fact the ignorant and misinformed fluff bunnies succeeded. My 2 cents!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jennifer on June 23, 2008 at 5:22pm: Where does respect for another's beliefs end, and correction begin?

Now to the OP John I believe you have raised a good topic of interest. Very debatable, yet very sensitive. My thoughts on this is how you present your correction of the person who's beliefs your trying to respect. There are ways of writing constructive criticism without being arrogant to the point where the person would think their beliefs are being attacked. It's all in your personality skills and how you present yourself in the discussion. I think the wrong way to go about disputing another's facts based on beliefs is by stating they are "Wrong" or "Not Factual". Instead, start out by saying, well you have a good point, and here is what I have found to be true, or Indeed, i however tend to agree to disagree based on this...and present your facts and beliefs on the topic of conversation. That way each of you can dispute without attacking each others faith and belief systems. Again it's all how you present you dispute.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jennifer on June 23, 2008 at 5:30pm: We were taught in school and college that constructive criticism will always be a part of expanding our knowledge, its not that our teacher's were attacking us, it's that they were helping us to see the light. Know the difference between what is factual and what is false. We cannot get angry over this type of criticism, because it is merely benefiting our very existence. Nurturing us to expand and grow, thus giving us the fundamentals to do so. Those who get angry, should in fact only be angry with themselves for not looking outside the "Box"; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Lady Anastasia on June 23, 2008 at 6:08pm: Instead, start out by saying, well you have a good point, and here is what I have found to be true, or Indeed

You're wrong. lololol

I'm sorry, but, that just wont work for me... They don't have a good point... they often have no point, none at all....; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jennifer on June 23, 2008 at 6:18pm: Lol thats hilarious!! They may be wrong, yes, but in order to appear as though you're "not" attacking their beliefs, sometimes, its all how you word it...was All I was implying...and you know whats the best way to word things for yourself as to not intentionally attack another's beliefs..Those were just my own examples...

hehehe...Huggs!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Fool Coyote on June 23, 2008 at 6:33pm: Well I'm seeing allot of the OMG, we can't attack their beliefs attitude and that's a good thing up to a point. However again, where does it become acceptable to make corrections.

I can "believe" that the sky is red, but sooner or later, especially if I'm trying to convince others of this "fact" someone is going to set me straight and tell me it's blue.

Now don't get me wrong, I have my gnosis the same as anyone else does, but I keep this seperate from what is fact, I keep seperate what is ancient and what is modern, though through said gnosis work to blend the two together. I don't think making a correction is the same as saying your beliefs are wrong. :); ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Fool Coyote on June 23, 2008 at 6:39pm: To me the important thing is Scholarship within the Pagan Communities. I think people just need to learn to be a little thicker skinned.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Lady Anastasia on June 23, 2008 at 6:52pm: They may be wrong, yes, but in order to appear as though you're "not" attacking their beliefs, sometimes, its all how you word it...was All I was implying..

Ohhh... I know.

Here's the thing though... I am "Hannibal lala" I don't care if people perceive me as attacking them or not. lol; ▶ Reply to This